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Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Netherious
- Start date
Where would Kingdra be?
It's in B- now and honestly I'd argue it should drop to C+
It has a niche as a swift swimmer but you have to choose to use it over Ludicolo which is an iffy choice. Instead normally its used on heavy rain teams, which is a very specific archtype that in all honesty isn't very good. It's outclassed in most situations and faces a lot of competition for a team spot except for on those teams. It requires a lot of support in that you have to run rain, along with either other rain mons or something like amoonguss to eat fairy type attacks.
it can, someone let me know who to transfer it to
I'm on here very frequently and would have the time to run that. Plus i'm fully committed to VGC 18 over any other format
tennisace Can you transfer ownership to me? I am the heir to the throne that is viability. Hello everyone!
Some of you may know me as Netherious on discord. For those who don't know me, I've been a community member for much longer than what my account shows, actually dating back to 2009, the birth of VGC. I've recently made a return to active VGC in 2017; and i've been neck deep in calculations this year in 18. Just a little bit of background before I delve into the changes I plan to make to this thread effect as soon as I take over ownership. Firstly:
DROPS:
Mega Tyranitar A+ --> A-
Tyranitar A+ --> A-
The changes above to Tyranitar are due to the rise in Low Kick Incineroar and an overall decline in usage.
Aegislash A --> A-
Amoonguss A --> A-
These two will be dropping thanks to your friendly neighborhood Incineroar. Success with them and usage have stumbled slightly.
Mega Charizard Y A --> A-
Usage has started to dwindle off for Mega Charizard Y as well. Still a good mon but not as dominant as it used to be.
Gothitelle A- --> B
Heatran A- --> C-
Two relatively large drops related to usage and tournament success. Gothitelle is troubled by the massive use of Incineroar and Heatran struggles in a metagame so crowded with bulky waters and strong and commonly used ground type attackers.
Celesteela B+ --> B
Mega Kangaskhan B+ --> B
Stakataka B+ --> B
A decline in usage for Celesteela, unable to beat Incineroar by any means but still has a niche in very defensive teams. Kangaskhan struggles to stand out as a Mega choice with so many better options in this metagame. Stakataka also struggles to stand out as a reliable Trick Room setter/sweeper.
Mega Swampert B --> C
Thundurus-T B --> C
Weavile B --> C-
Swampert is only good within the realm of rain, which helps to boost it's STAB Waterfall. Without rain, it doesn't stand out. Thundurus-T still has potential in this metagame but has yet to really show for it outside of some early meta success. Weavile is struggling to have purpose thanks to Incineroar stopping it cold in its tracks.
Clefable B- --> Unranked
Kingdra B- --> Unranked
Marowak-A B- --> C
Pheromosa B- --> C-
Togedemaru B- --> C
Venusaur B- --> C
Clefable is overshadowed by the younger sibling who is much better at supporting offensive teams thanks to Eviolite and Friend Guard.
Kingdra fails to stand out with ANY use outside of rain, and even within rain it hasn't seen much success.
Marowak-A is on it's last limb in this metagame dominated by Incineroar.
Pheromosa still has a niche in OHKOing Snorlax and some Porygon2. Outside of that, it struggles to stay alive long enough to carry the weight of a team slot.
Togedemaru hasn't seen much use and struggles to support much beyond the sparsely distributed abilities it has.
Venusaur in it's non megs form has suffered from the decline in use from Mega Charizard Y. Outside of being a sun sweeper, you're better off running Mega Venusaur.
Entei C+ --> Unranked
Ninetales-A C+ --> Unranked
Gyarados C+ --> C
Hydreigon C+ --> C-
Hard times for these two. Entei is so strongly overshadowed by other fire types; Without naming names.
Ninetales-A has limited merit outside of Hail support and Aurora Veil. Sorry.
Gyarados is down on usage and Hydreigon still struggles to stand out from the other much better Dark-Types in this meta.
Arcanine C --> Unranked
Greninja C --> Unranked
Muk-A C --> Unranked
Nidoqueen C --> Unranked
Latios C --> Unranked
Mudsdale C --> Unranked
Jellicent C- --> Unranked
Krookodile C- --> Unranked
Lilligant C- --> Unranked
Mandibuzz C- --> Unranked
Not enough use to justify being on here. Heavily outclassed beyond usefulness. Most of these seem to be 2017 leftovers. Bye Felicia.
RISES:
FROM THE GRAVE:
Scizor --> C
Bisharp --> B
Mega-Aerodactyl --> B-
Braviary --> B-
Malamar --> C
All of these Pokemon have seen enough usage or success to justify being on this thread. Bisharp will be the biggest increase thanks to its extreme offensive pressure in a metagame so heavily dominated by intimidators. It is one of the few Pokemon who can OHKO those intimidators in return.
Mega Aerodactyl took Japan by storm and has proven itself to be a decent Tailwind setter/ Sky Drop Disruptor.
Braviary and Malamar have seen some use thanks to the rise of Intimidate. They have potential to tear apart unprepared teams.
FROM THE RANKS:
Mega Venusaur B- --> B+
Nihilego B- --> B+
Rise of Poison! These two Pokemon have seen usage rise with the metagame shifting bringing about more Rock and Poison weaknesses to teams. Venusaur can stall out less offensive Incineroar sets thanks to Thick Fat and Leech Seed (thanks for the nightmares Maltrab). Nihilego is a creative Trick Room option who also doubles as a great anti-meta Pokemon. capable threatening OHKO's on several top tier threats such as Incineroar, The Island Guardians, Zapdos, Gardevoir, Salamence, and Landorus-T.
Milotic B+ --> A-
Kommo-o B+ --> A-
Mega Gardevoir B+ --> A-
Milotic's spike in usage has finally paid off netting it top 20 for CP earned in the Post Intimiroar Era.
The rise of EVERYONE'S favorite dragon, Kommo-O. The deadly combination of Kommo-O, Gengar, and Tapu Bulu continues to dominate tournaments, winning two Regionals back-to-back. Even Tapu Fini can't stop some Kommo-o thanks to it's access to Belly Drum + Poison Jab.
Mega-Gardevoir pairs amazingly well with the new Intimidate Incineroar. Usage forced the issue.
Tapu Bulu A- --> A
Mega Gengar A- --> A+
Porygon2 A- --> A
Great success at tournaments for all 3 of these Pokemon earn them a higher ranking. Tapu Bulu and Mega Gengar have proven to be some of the best anti-meta Pokemon seen in a VGC metagame in years. The disruptive nature combined with offensive presence is well deserved. Porygon2's versatility as a supporter, Trick Room setter, and even offensive threat justify this move.
That's all I've got for now! Feel free to discuss what you agree with or disagree with. Thank you!
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I am going to say the unthinkable, but, Incineroar is currently the best pokemon in VGC right now. It's easy to see this just by looking at the reasoning for the drops. many of the drops are influenced in some way by Incineroar, like Gothitelle's, Amoonguss's, Aegislash's, Marowak's, Celesteela's, Weavile's, and Entei's and Arcanine's indirectly. Promote it where it needs and deserves to be. It's time for Incineroar to be S rank.tennisace Can you transfer ownership to me? I am the heir to the throne that is viability. Hello everyone!
Some of you may know me as Netherious on discord. For those who don't know me, I've been a community member for much longer than what my account shows, actually dating back to 2009, the birth of VGC. I've recently made a return to active VGC in 2017; and i've been neck deep in calculations this year in 18. Just a little bit of background before I delve into the changes I plan to make to this thread effect as soon as I take over ownership. Firstly:
DROPS:
Mega Tyranitar A+ --> A-
Tyranitar A+ --> A-
The changes above to Tyranitar are due to the rise in Low Kick Incineroar and an overall decline in usage.
Aegislash A --> A-
Amoonguss A --> A-
These two will be dropping thanks to your friendly neighborhood Incineroar. Success with them and usage have stumbled slightly.
Mega Charizard Y A --> A-
Usage has started to dwindle off for Mega Charizard Y as well. Still a good mon but not as dominant as it used to be.
Gothitelle A- --> B
Heatran A- --> C-
Two relatively large drops related to usage and tournament success. Gothitelle is troubled by the massive use of Incineroar and Heatran struggles in a metagame so crowded with bulky waters and strong and commonly used ground type attackers.
Celesteela B+ --> B
Mega Kangaskhan B+ --> B
Stakataka B+ --> B
A decline in usage for Celesteela, unable to beat Incineroar by any means but still has a niche in very defensive teams. Kangaskhan struggles to stand out as a Mega choice with so many better options in this metagame. Stakataka also struggles to stand out as a reliable Trick Room setter/sweeper.
Mega Swampert B --> C
Thundurus-T B --> C
Weavile B --> C-
Swampert is only good within the realm of rain, which helps to boost it's STAB Waterfall. Without rain, it doesn't stand out. Thundurus-T still has potential in this metagame but has yet to really show for it outside of some early meta success. Weavile is struggling to have purpose thanks to Incineroar stopping it cold in its tracks.
Clefable B- --> Unranked
Kingdra B- --> Unranked
Marowak-A B- --> C
Pheromosa B- --> C-
Togedemaru B- --> C
Venusaur B- --> C
Clefable is overshadowed by the younger sibling who is much better at supporting offensive teams thanks to Eviolite and Friend Guard.
Kingdra fails to stand out with ANY use outside of rain, and even within rain it hasn't seen much success.
Marowak-A is on it's last limb in this metagame dominated by Incineroar.
Pheromosa still has a niche in OHKOing Snorlax and some Porygon2. Outside of that, it struggles to stay alive long enough to carry the weight of a team slot.
Togedemaru hasn't seen much use and struggles to support much beyond the sparsely distributed abilities it has.
Venusaur in it's non megs form has suffered from the decline in use from Mega Charizard Y. Outside of being a sun sweeper, you're better off running Mega Venusaur.
Entei C+ --> Unranked
Ninetales-A C+ --> Unranked
Gyarados C+ --> C
Hydreigon C+ --> C-
Hard times for these two. Entei is so strongly overshadowed by other fire types; Without naming names.
Ninetales-A has limited merit outside of Hail support and Aurora Veil. Sorry.
Gyarados is down on usage and Hydreigon still struggles to stand out from the other much better Dark-Types in this meta.
Arcanine C --> Unranked
Greninja C --> Unranked
Muk-A C --> Unranked
Nidoqueen C --> Unranked
Latios C --> Unranked
Mudsdale C --> Unranked
Jellicent C- --> Unranked
Krookodile C- --> Unranked
Lilligant C- --> Unranked
Mandibuzz C- --> Unranked
Not enough use to justify being on here. Heavily outclassed beyond usefulness. Most of these seem to be 2017 leftovers. Bye Felicia.
I will be adding the promotions shortly!
I can agree with this, But I'd like to have a to vote on this. That's a big move so I'd like to see some other opinions and see if the thought is unanimous or not.
You know, I really have to agree here. He's at the highest usage in the metagame by quite a decent stretch (roughly 5% above Lando-T according to pikalytics), has something that almost any team could want as a Fake Out user, Intimidate spammer, bulky dark type, bulky fire type, trick room check, knock off user, strong attacker, and the list goes on and on.
[edit] Also, the fact that his big checks (I'm not calling them counters because they're not) such as Milotic, Bisharp, Tapu Fini, and similar mons are rising in usage to such a degree is only a testament to Incineroar's strength.
I think I'm willing to say that it truly is time for this big scary cat to be S rank.
Tbh a lot of those pokemon would have been dropped even without incineroar because they couldn't compete (marowak and ninetales just to name a few). I actually don't think incineroar should be S despite having a lot of tools and I still see a lot of merit in using Landorus over the big cat, but that's just me
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I agree that the Incineroar should be moved up to s rank as it provides great fake out/intimidate support, threatens much of the metagame, and is used on a majority of teams.
In addition I think that Mega-Metagross may need to shift down a bit, probably within the A+ rank. It definitely has dominance within the tier as a hard hitter, but with the dominance of Incineroar recently it has seen some difficulties with dealing with it.
Reasons for this include that the intimidate that Incineroar provides can lower its offensive presence if it comes in after mega evolution and it can ohko Mega-Metagross 56.3% of the time with flare blitz should it be running 252+ while Mega-Metagross only 2HKOs back with stomping tantrum without intimidate, though Incineroar won't be switching in recklessly as a result. Though, with intimidate the chance of stomping tantrum 2HKOing goes down to 3.9%, quite an unlikely occurrence.
In addition Lelegross teams often have difficulties dealing with it as some Mega-Metagross sets may lack stomping tantrum in favor of zen headbutt and Tapu Lele fails to ohko Incineroar through assault vest even with the rare fightnium-z set.
In addition I think that Mega-Metagross may need to shift down a bit, probably within the A+ rank. It definitely has dominance within the tier as a hard hitter, but with the dominance of Incineroar recently it has seen some difficulties with dealing with it.
Reasons for this include that the intimidate that Incineroar provides can lower its offensive presence if it comes in after mega evolution and it can ohko Mega-Metagross 56.3% of the time with flare blitz should it be running 252+ while Mega-Metagross only 2HKOs back with stomping tantrum without intimidate, though Incineroar won't be switching in recklessly as a result. Though, with intimidate the chance of stomping tantrum 2HKOing goes down to 3.9%, quite an unlikely occurrence.
In addition Lelegross teams often have difficulties dealing with it as some Mega-Metagross sets may lack stomping tantrum in favor of zen headbutt and Tapu Lele fails to ohko Incineroar through assault vest even with the rare fightnium-z set.
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Considering the incredible number of drops and rises, I am thoroughly surprised to say this, but I agree with all of them, awesome work there! I'm especially in agreement with the choice of what to completely exclude and what to introduce, they're all very pertinent.
As far as Incineroar to S-rank goes, I could get behind it, it's clearly at the top of usage and viability at the moment, but it's hard to do it and leave Landorus-T behind. For the last couple of months, the top position in usage has been going back and forth constantly between Incineroar and Landorus-T, and Landorus-T's presence has not been dropping, especially when looking at top cuts.
On VGCStats, you can see the success of Incineroar and Landorus-T is practically the same in the post-Incineroar stats (around 50% CP-WU), and both of them are considerably high up above the 3rd spot, Tapu Koko (at 38%). Thus, I think both Incineroar and Landorus-T should be made S-rank.
As far as the fact many drops were influenced by Incineroar, clearly Pokémon that were already in the metagame (like Lando) cannot have such a sudden impact as they don't go through a release, the metagame had already built itself around them, so I'm not sure how much weight has to be given to it in deciding what should be S- or A-rank (though it shows, at least, that the Pokémon is seeing high usage). On the flip side, I would disagree with the argument that many of the Incineroar-influenced drops would have happened anyway: Charizard Y, Gothitelle, Amoonguss, Tyranitar... all these Pokémon were clearly on a rise before the release of Intimiroar and there was no sign of them dropping in viability.
I said a lot, not every single one (and of the ones you mentioned amonguss is still widely used even after HA incineroar so i'm not completely fond of dropping it).
I was going to do something like this after a viability ranking update, but you did it, and better than I would have. Not just the changing of ranks (especially the A ranks), but the unranking of many never-seen Pokemon.tennisace Can you transfer ownership to me? I am the heir to the throne that is viability. Hello everyone!
Some of you may know me as Netherious on discord. For those who don't know me, I've been a community member for much longer than what my account shows, actually dating back to 2009, the birth of VGC. I've recently made a return to active VGC in 2017; and i've been neck deep in calculations this year in 18. Just a little bit of background before I delve into the changes I plan to make to this thread effect as soon as I take over ownership. Firstly:
DROPS:
Mega Tyranitar A+ --> A-
Tyranitar A+ --> A-
The changes above to Tyranitar are due to the rise in Low Kick Incineroar and an overall decline in usage.
Aegislash A --> A-
Amoonguss A --> A-
These two will be dropping thanks to your friendly neighborhood Incineroar. Success with them and usage have stumbled slightly.
Mega Charizard Y A --> A-
Usage has started to dwindle off for Mega Charizard Y as well. Still a good mon but not as dominant as it used to be.
Gothitelle A- --> B
Heatran A- --> C-
Two relatively large drops related to usage and tournament success. Gothitelle is troubled by the massive use of Incineroar and Heatran struggles in a metagame so crowded with bulky waters and strong and commonly used ground type attackers.
Celesteela B+ --> B
Mega Kangaskhan B+ --> B
Stakataka B+ --> B
A decline in usage for Celesteela, unable to beat Incineroar by any means but still has a niche in very defensive teams. Kangaskhan struggles to stand out as a Mega choice with so many better options in this metagame. Stakataka also struggles to stand out as a reliable Trick Room setter/sweeper.
Mega Swampert B --> C
Thundurus-T B --> C
Weavile B --> C-
Swampert is only good within the realm of rain, which helps to boost it's STAB Waterfall. Without rain, it doesn't stand out. Thundurus-T still has potential in this metagame but has yet to really show for it outside of some early meta success. Weavile is struggling to have purpose thanks to Incineroar stopping it cold in its tracks.
Clefable B- --> Unranked
Kingdra B- --> Unranked
Marowak-A B- --> C
Pheromosa B- --> C-
Togedemaru B- --> C
Venusaur B- --> C
Clefable is overshadowed by the younger sibling who is much better at supporting offensive teams thanks to Eviolite and Friend Guard.
Kingdra fails to stand out with ANY use outside of rain, and even within rain it hasn't seen much success.
Marowak-A is on it's last limb in this metagame dominated by Incineroar.
Pheromosa still has a niche in OHKOing Snorlax and some Porygon2. Outside of that, it struggles to stay alive long enough to carry the weight of a team slot.
Togedemaru hasn't seen much use and struggles to support much beyond the sparsely distributed abilities it has.
Venusaur in it's non megs form has suffered from the decline in use from Mega Charizard Y. Outside of being a sun sweeper, you're better off running Mega Venusaur.
Entei C+ --> Unranked
Ninetales-A C+ --> Unranked
Gyarados C+ --> C
Hydreigon C+ --> C-
Hard times for these two. Entei is so strongly overshadowed by other fire types; Without naming names.
Ninetales-A has limited merit outside of Hail support and Aurora Veil. Sorry.
Gyarados is down on usage and Hydreigon still struggles to stand out from the other much better Dark-Types in this meta.
Arcanine C --> Unranked
Greninja C --> Unranked
Muk-A C --> Unranked
Nidoqueen C --> Unranked
Latios C --> Unranked
Mudsdale C --> Unranked
Jellicent C- --> Unranked
Krookodile C- --> Unranked
Lilligant C- --> Unranked
Mandibuzz C- --> Unranked
Not enough use to justify being on here. Heavily outclassed beyond usefulness. Most of these seem to be 2017 leftovers. Bye Felicia.
RISES:
FROM THE GRAVE:
Scizor --> C
Bisharp --> B
Mega-Aerodactyl --> B-
Braviary --> B-
Malamar --> C
All of these Pokemon have seen enough usage or success to justify being on this thread. Bisharp will be the biggest increase thanks to its extreme offensive pressure in a metagame so heavily dominated by intimidators. It is one of the few Pokemon who can OHKO those intimidators in return.
Mega Aerodactyl took Japan by storm and has proven itself to be a decent Tailwind setter/ Sky Drop Disruptor.
Braviary and Malamar have seen some use thanks to the rise of Intimidate. They have potential to tear apart unprepared teams.
FROM THE RANKS:
Mega Venusaur B- --> B+
Nihilego B- --> B+
Rise of Poison! These two Pokemon have seen usage rise with the metagame shifting bringing about more Rock and Poison weaknesses to teams. Venusaur can stall out less offensive Incineroar sets thanks to Thick Fat and Leech Seed (thanks for the nightmares Maltrab). Nihilego is a creative Trick Room option who also doubles as a great anti-meta Pokemon. capable threatening OHKO's on several top tier threats such as Incineroar, The Island Guardians, Zapdos, Gardevoir, Salamence, and Landorus-T.
Milotic B+ --> A-
Kommo-o B+ --> A-
Mega Gardevoir B+ --> A-
Milotic's spike in usage has finally paid off netting it top 20 for CP earned in the Post Intimiroar Era.
The rise of EVERYONE'S favorite dragon, Kommo-O. The deadly combination of Kommo-O, Gengar, and Tapu Bulu continues to dominate tournaments, winning two Regionals back-to-back. Even Tapu Fini can't stop some Kommo-o thanks to it's access to Belly Drum + Poison Jab.
Mega-Gardevoir pairs amazingly well with the new Intimidate Incineroar. Usage forced the issue.
Tapu Bulu A- --> A
Mega Gengar A- --> A+
Porygon2 A- --> A
Great success at tournaments for all 3 of these Pokemon earn them a higher ranking. Tapu Bulu and Mega Gengar have proven to be some of the best anti-meta Pokemon seen in a VGC metagame in years. The disruptive nature combined with offensive presence is well deserved. Porygon2's versatility as a supporter, Trick Room setter, and even offensive threat justify this move.
That's all I've got for now! Feel free to discuss what you agree with or disagree with. Thank you!
I may have more thoughts on these changes later. I have three minor disagreements:
- With Scizor moving to C rank, is Mega Scizor moving with it? Not sure if this was omitted or intentional.
- Unlike the others who've been unranked, Arcanine has seen some success. It made top 8 recently in Toronto regionals, and won Perth regionals. It's largely outclassed by other Fire-types but not completely. But rather, I feel it should be C- on account that it has seen some degree of recent success.
- Infernape can join the unranked. Similarly to those unranked, I haven't heard of any success, and it also faces competition issues
I think that MGross is one of the worse current A+ Pokemon (very slightly edging ahead of MGengar who's now moved up), but I can still see it in A+ for now. It's still easy to fit in many teams and does well despite Incineroar's success.
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The pokemon inside the ranks themselves are just sorted alphabetically. Similar to the OUVR's stance, trying to sort pokemon inside ranks themselves is just a waste of time:
Nom to drop ttar to B and M ttar to B-
Ttar struggles to break through common stuff such as kommo o and bisharp, which has been steadily rising in usage recently. Other stuff such as kartana and braviary (to a smaller extent) can also threaten a ohko with superpower and sacred sword, Darkinium z has also been dwindling in usage for ttar due to dwindling usage of cresselia and incineroar providing the much needed dark coverage most of the time. M ttar on the other hand also finds difficulty in setting up ddance due to the same reasons, with the three attack variant struggling to deal consistent damage due to common intimidators such as incineroar and landorus. Overall ttar also finds itself being outclassed by nihilego as a superior rock type, partially due to the sheer unpredictability of nihilego sets, with scarf, z move and trick room variants all being viable, as well as having a better offensive typing in the current meta
Ttar struggles to break through common stuff such as kommo o and bisharp, which has been steadily rising in usage recently. Other stuff such as kartana and braviary (to a smaller extent) can also threaten a ohko with superpower and sacred sword, Darkinium z has also been dwindling in usage for ttar due to dwindling usage of cresselia and incineroar providing the much needed dark coverage most of the time. M ttar on the other hand also finds difficulty in setting up ddance due to the same reasons, with the three attack variant struggling to deal consistent damage due to common intimidators such as incineroar and landorus. Overall ttar also finds itself being outclassed by nihilego as a superior rock type, partially due to the sheer unpredictability of nihilego sets, with scarf, z move and trick room variants all being viable, as well as having a better offensive typing in the current meta
The metagame shifts definitely help Mega Venusaur but Lele, MegaMeta, and Mega Mence are still big problems for it. I think B would be a better place. It's also vulnerable to Z Moves as they just hit for so much damage.tennisace Can you transfer ownership to me? I am the heir to the throne that is viability. Hello everyone!
Some of you may know me as Netherious on discord. For those who don't know me, I've been a community member for much longer than what my account shows, actually dating back to 2009, the birth of VGC. I've recently made a return to active VGC in 2017; and i've been neck deep in calculations this year in 18. Just a little bit of background before I delve into the changes I plan to make to this thread effect as soon as I take over ownership. Firstly:
DROPS:
Mega Tyranitar A+ --> A-
Tyranitar A+ --> A-
The changes above to Tyranitar are due to the rise in Low Kick Incineroar and an overall decline in usage.
Aegislash A --> A-
Amoonguss A --> A-
These two will be dropping thanks to your friendly neighborhood Incineroar. Success with them and usage have stumbled slightly.
Mega Charizard Y A --> A-
Usage has started to dwindle off for Mega Charizard Y as well. Still a good mon but not as dominant as it used to be.
Gothitelle A- --> B
Heatran A- --> C-
Two relatively large drops related to usage and tournament success. Gothitelle is troubled by the massive use of Incineroar and Heatran struggles in a metagame so crowded with bulky waters and strong and commonly used ground type attackers.
Celesteela B+ --> B
Mega Kangaskhan B+ --> B
Stakataka B+ --> B
A decline in usage for Celesteela, unable to beat Incineroar by any means but still has a niche in very defensive teams. Kangaskhan struggles to stand out as a Mega choice with so many better options in this metagame. Stakataka also struggles to stand out as a reliable Trick Room setter/sweeper.
Mega Swampert B --> C
Thundurus-T B --> C
Weavile B --> C-
Swampert is only good within the realm of rain, which helps to boost it's STAB Waterfall. Without rain, it doesn't stand out. Thundurus-T still has potential in this metagame but has yet to really show for it outside of some early meta success. Weavile is struggling to have purpose thanks to Incineroar stopping it cold in its tracks.
Clefable B- --> Unranked
Kingdra B- --> Unranked
Marowak-A B- --> C
Pheromosa B- --> C-
Togedemaru B- --> C
Venusaur B- --> C
Clefable is overshadowed by the younger sibling who is much better at supporting offensive teams thanks to Eviolite and Friend Guard.
Kingdra fails to stand out with ANY use outside of rain, and even within rain it hasn't seen much success.
Marowak-A is on it's last limb in this metagame dominated by Incineroar.
Pheromosa still has a niche in OHKOing Snorlax and some Porygon2. Outside of that, it struggles to stay alive long enough to carry the weight of a team slot.
Togedemaru hasn't seen much use and struggles to support much beyond the sparsely distributed abilities it has.
Venusaur in it's non megs form has suffered from the decline in use from Mega Charizard Y. Outside of being a sun sweeper, you're better off running Mega Venusaur.
Entei C+ --> Unranked
Ninetales-A C+ --> Unranked
Gyarados C+ --> C
Hydreigon C+ --> C-
Hard times for these two. Entei is so strongly overshadowed by other fire types; Without naming names.
Ninetales-A has limited merit outside of Hail support and Aurora Veil. Sorry.
Gyarados is down on usage and Hydreigon still struggles to stand out from the other much better Dark-Types in this meta.
Arcanine C --> Unranked
Greninja C --> Unranked
Muk-A C --> Unranked
Nidoqueen C --> Unranked
Latios C --> Unranked
Mudsdale C --> Unranked
Jellicent C- --> Unranked
Krookodile C- --> Unranked
Lilligant C- --> Unranked
Mandibuzz C- --> Unranked
Not enough use to justify being on here. Heavily outclassed beyond usefulness. Most of these seem to be 2017 leftovers. Bye Felicia.
RISES:
FROM THE GRAVE:
Scizor --> C
Bisharp --> B
Mega-Aerodactyl --> B-
Braviary --> B-
Malamar --> C
All of these Pokemon have seen enough usage or success to justify being on this thread. Bisharp will be the biggest increase thanks to its extreme offensive pressure in a metagame so heavily dominated by intimidators. It is one of the few Pokemon who can OHKO those intimidators in return.
Mega Aerodactyl took Japan by storm and has proven itself to be a decent Tailwind setter/ Sky Drop Disruptor.
Braviary and Malamar have seen some use thanks to the rise of Intimidate. They have potential to tear apart unprepared teams.
FROM THE RANKS:
Mega Venusaur B- --> B+
Nihilego B- --> B+
Rise of Poison! These two Pokemon have seen usage rise with the metagame shifting bringing about more Rock and Poison weaknesses to teams. Venusaur can stall out less offensive Incineroar sets thanks to Thick Fat and Leech Seed (thanks for the nightmares Maltrab). Nihilego is a creative Trick Room option who also doubles as a great anti-meta Pokemon. capable threatening OHKO's on several top tier threats such as Incineroar, The Island Guardians, Zapdos, Gardevoir, Salamence, and Landorus-T.
Milotic B+ --> A-
Kommo-o B+ --> A-
Mega Gardevoir B+ --> A-
Milotic's spike in usage has finally paid off netting it top 20 for CP earned in the Post Intimiroar Era.
The rise of EVERYONE'S favorite dragon, Kommo-O. The deadly combination of Kommo-O, Gengar, and Tapu Bulu continues to dominate tournaments, winning two Regionals back-to-back. Even Tapu Fini can't stop some Kommo-o thanks to it's access to Belly Drum + Poison Jab.
Mega-Gardevoir pairs amazingly well with the new Intimidate Incineroar. Usage forced the issue.
Tapu Bulu A- --> A
Mega Gengar A- --> A+
Porygon2 A- --> A
Great success at tournaments for all 3 of these Pokemon earn them a higher ranking. Tapu Bulu and Mega Gengar have proven to be some of the best anti-meta Pokemon seen in a VGC metagame in years. The disruptive nature combined with offensive presence is well deserved. Porygon2's versatility as a supporter, Trick Room setter, and even offensive threat justify this move.
That's all I've got for now! Feel free to discuss what you agree with or disagree with. Thank you!
That being said, lele usage has dropped drastically due to a few factors, eg. rise of bisharp, appearance of intimiroar etc. It is not as commonly seen around as the other tapus anymore and struggles to find a spot on teams sometimes. It is just not as good as it was. M gross rarely carries zen headbutt now, while iron head is a 3hko at best. M Mence on the other hand has also been dwindling in usage. Rain however is on the rise, and m venu straight out hard walls rain, so with all these factors considered, i'd say that B+ is pretty reasonable
But who's actually using venu? Kitty is still super scary, along with zard and even lando to an extent. And i'm pretty sure that even if you're not running Zen headbutt on metagross, you can still widdle down a venu with a 3ko before the venu gets you with HP fire. Venu doesn't really enjoy TR either. I'd say B or even B- is better, that's just me.
3hko sounds easy until you remember that venu has leech seed and protect and can easily eat those flare blitz easily
I don't think Greninja should be unranked - I thought C was fine for it. It has as much CP as Nihilego since Incineroar was released (per vgcstats), and more than stuff like M-Mawile and Lurantis. While it's usage is inflated by low ladder players it still definitely has a niche that can't be filled by other pokemon. Mat block is unique to it and Smeargle and having a fast Poison/Ice/Fighting STAB is fairly unique individually.
Metagross shouldn't drop, I don't know why that's a discussion. It's still the best mega and more importantly, the most consistent Mega. I also think TTar and M-TTar are fine where they are in A-. M-TTar shores up weather matchups extremely well and honestly there aren't many good items for TTar anyways. It also takes an incineroar low kick. TTar on it's own is valuable as a physical attacker that Incineroar struggles to switch in on, doubly so if it doesn't carry low kick. It also has it's niche in helping counter weather and given that it beats the three best megas (Metagross, Mence, and Gengar).
M-Aero did will in one tournament, I don't think it should be above C. If it has more consistent support then sure, but moving it to B- is way too high for it's limited usage and success.
Mence should probably drop to A- given it's limited success recently. Stakataka should also drop further - I don't think I've seen one do well in a long time and it gets hits harder by the rise of special Lando and Low Kick incineroar than anything else.
Metagross shouldn't drop, I don't know why that's a discussion. It's still the best mega and more importantly, the most consistent Mega. I also think TTar and M-TTar are fine where they are in A-. M-TTar shores up weather matchups extremely well and honestly there aren't many good items for TTar anyways. It also takes an incineroar low kick. TTar on it's own is valuable as a physical attacker that Incineroar struggles to switch in on, doubly so if it doesn't carry low kick. It also has it's niche in helping counter weather and given that it beats the three best megas (Metagross, Mence, and Gengar).
M-Aero did will in one tournament, I don't think it should be above C. If it has more consistent support then sure, but moving it to B- is way too high for it's limited usage and success.
Mence should probably drop to A- given it's limited success recently. Stakataka should also drop further - I don't think I've seen one do well in a long time and it gets hits harder by the rise of special Lando and Low Kick incineroar than anything else.
Responses in Red.
Great discussion guys! I've seen some pretty strong response to some moves I made and I'm going to make the corresponding changes:
Mega Salamence A --> A-
The math is there and proves they are worth to at least qualify. I'm trying to filter down the C Tier. It seems a little too big. with That being said how do we feel about the following changes?
Drifblim C+ --> C-
Persian-A C+ --> C-
Magnezone C --> Unranked
Marowak-A C --> Unranked
Primarina C --> Unranked
Aerodactyl C- --> Unranked
Xurkitree C- --> Unranked
Here's some non C Tier changes I either haven't seen talked about or needs a little more. so lets talk just a little more about them before I make the move.
Gastrodon B --> B+
Excadrill B --> C+
Lastly, I'd like to fill up A a little more. A- has gotten rather large... although the metagame does feel like it's at a point where theres only a few amazing mons with a lot that can contend. Any opinions on A- and what could go lower/higher? ALSO, any final words on Incineroar moving to S tier? I'd love to see some counter arguments to the move or more support for it before I make that move. We are almost there but I think we could delve deeper into the topic.
Thanks!
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